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 fast drying medium/ and fat over lean

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fancyhorse



Posts: 9
Join date: 2010-12-31

PostSubject: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:12 pm

Hi you guys,

I am a bit rusty with my oils to begin, and still relatively new to WSOs. I have tried Artisan's fast drying medium with my Holbein duos and liked it a lot, created a nice effect in my painting. My question is, will I be getting more fat or more lean by adding greater amounts of the fast drying medium? If it were linseed oil or any other kind of oil, of course it would be getting more fat with adding greater amounts of the oil. But since this stuff makes the paint dry faster, does increasing amounts of the fast drying medium = more and more fat, or more and more lean??

I also own a bottle of the Artisan thinner, in a small bottle i.e. it is not regular thinner but a specialized product. I was thinking to use that to apply my first lean layer on the painting, that is to say, a wash (rather than use water).

Next I was going to go with the fast drying medium, but like I said, I am not sure to keep adding more of that with each layer or less with each layer to keep the fat over lean rule.

Last of all I figured I might use some linseed, safflower or walnut medium for fine details but if the fast drying medium can give me fine details maybe I won't feel the need to use the linseed etc.

What should I seal the painting with to even out the sheen from the fast drying medium? As you know, it gives the paint a glossy kind of shine to it. But I would like for that to be uniform across the painting.

Thanks for your help with figuring out how to use the mediums through the layers/process of painting.

PS, how does Holbien's own fast drying medium compare with Artisans FDM? About the same? DIfferent drying times and effects on paints??

Thanks a bunch you guys, I am THRILLED to have found this forum!!!
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Janet
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Join date: 2009-11-15
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PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:21 am

Hi fancyhorse and welcome to the forum! Welcome

One point is you don't need to add more medium to get fatter in subsequent layers. You can use the same amount throughout the whole painting and still be following the rules of fat over lean.

I've never used the Holbein fast drying medium so I can't comment on that one.

You might find this thread interesting regarding fat over lean:

http://watersolubleoils.forumotion.com/t6-how-does-the-fat-over-lean-rule-apply

Applying a thin coat of linseed oil is what I've been told works to even out the sheen on a painting. After applying it wipe with a cloth.

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Janet
http://janet-coloredpencil.blogspot.com/
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fancyhorse



Posts: 9
Join date: 2010-12-31

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:57 am

Hey Janet,

Perfect, that thread has tons of info... thankyou! I tried calling WN yesterday but they were already gone for new years.

Thanks for pointing out that I can use the same degree or fatness throughout the painting~ after reading a million times must get fatter, not leaner, with each layer... I somehow convinced myself that each layer had to be incrementally more fat (because that is what I kept reading though it was in a context). Doh, lightbulb moment... thanks to you!

I don't think I will use the artisan thinner product with my holbein duos since I was just reading on here that they don't mix well. Guess I will either try a wash of acrylics or just starting in straight away with the fast drying medium, which others have suggested for the first thin paint-sketch. I guess I could experiment with using a little water just for the first wash. Kinda disappointed to hear that the Artisan thinner is not compatible with the Holbein duos, there goes quite a bit of flexibility.

Thanks for the great forum you guys, it amazes me that there is still relatively little info on the WSOs, I am certain that with time they will replace the traditionals for all intensive purposes, might take a decade or two. Sean Dye must be making a zillion dollars off that book, with it being the only really in depth one on these paints. This forum is the best though, more in depth than any book, by far. Glad it exists!! WIll introduce myself in the intro section a bit later.
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fancyhorse



Posts: 9
Join date: 2010-12-31

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:01 am

Hmmm, I just got to thinking that maybe I could use the artisan paints I have stashed, with the artisan thinner, to create the first painting-sketch wash. Then go in with my Duos.

Decisions, decisions!!
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Janet
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Posts: 2050
Join date: 2009-11-15
Location Location: North Bay, Ontario Canada

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:56 am

Callie, one of our mods tested the Artisan thinner with the Holbein and found it worked with the Holbein. She was kind enough to do a demo for us. Here's the thread:

http://watersolubleoils.forumotion.com/t110-conventional-oils-painting-demos-translated-to-wsos

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Janet
http://janet-coloredpencil.blogspot.com/
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fancyhorse



Posts: 9
Join date: 2010-12-31

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:05 am

Hey Janet, that is incredibly helpful! Thanks so much for giving me that info and link. Opens up possibilities again without having to sprain my brain coming up with an alternative plan!!
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judyfilarecki
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Join date: 2009-11-16
Location Location: Northern NY and Southern Arizona

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:12 pm

Welcome to the forum! Smile I'm glad that Janet was able to give you so many great links.

The one thing I was always told about fat over lean is that as a layer dries, it becomes leaner making easy to apply the next layer which would automatically be fatter as long as you didn't dilute down with water. When I want to put a glaze over a previously painted layer, I use a small amount of walnut oil to "Thin" it down while making it "Fatter."

I look forward to seeing more of you throughout the forum.

Judy

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fancyhorse



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Join date: 2010-12-31

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:14 pm

Thanks Judy!
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dbclemons



Posts: 154
Join date: 2009-11-16
Location Location: Texas

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:23 am

Oil does not become leaner as it dries. Chemically it actually expands over time and then shrinks as it oxidizes, an effect sometimes referred to as "breathing." Even a painting that is several years old has the same amount of oil it ever did, and you shouldn't paint a leaner layer on top of it.

The only way oil can become leaner is by being thinned with a diluent like turpentine (or water for wmos.) These are sometimes called solvents, even though they do not actually dissolve the oil. The process of making oil leaner is sort of like rolling out dough for a pizza, it's the same amount of dough stretched out over a larger area.

It's incorrect to say that you make the paint thinner by adding oil. A medium will also disperse the pigment, but any time you add oil you're making the paint "fatter," even if the medium you're adding has a "solvent" in it. In other words, say I squeeze out some wmo paint. If I add water to it, the paint's leaner. If I add water and oil, it's fatter than it was. If I add only oil, it's fatter than it was. How fat depends on how much oil.

Another thing to bear in mind is how much oil is in the paint to begin with. Some tubes are made oilier than others. There are other factors to consider also, such as the type of oil (some dry faster than others,) the type of pigment (some dry faster than others,) and if a drier is used.
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fancyhorse



Posts: 9
Join date: 2010-12-31

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:09 am

Thanks David, that really helps with understanding what is actually happening to the paint by adding various solvents and mediums.

But what is it that makes the fast drying medium 'fast drying'? What is in there that expedites the drying time of the WMOs? That was my concern re: the fat over lean rule. So the fast drying medium definitely has oil in it, but what else is in there that makes the paint dry in half the time? From what you are saying, it doesn't matter what is in there because there is still oil in the fast drying medium that is being added, so therefore it is still making the paint more fat, even if it will be drying much more quickly due to that medium? It was the fast drying effect that has me worrying about fat vs. lean when adding this medium. It seems even Artisan was not able to really clarify how fast drying medium is affecting the fat over lean rule.
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judyfilarecki
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PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:00 pm

Dave,
I guess the person who explained drier paint being leaner was not correct. It makes sense with what you said about the oil always being there.

My comment about "thinning" the paint with walnut oil while making it "fatter" was in quotes because of the age-old confusion about the terms. I used "thinner" rather than "leaner" because they have two different meaning. Cutting a fatty piece of meat into a thinner slice doesn't make it any leaner. I guess I should have said I disperse the pigment with walnut oil for my glaze.

FancyHorse,

I'm sure you will run into the confusing wording again, if you haven't all ready. Hope I didn't confuse you.

judy


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fancyhorse



Posts: 9
Join date: 2010-12-31

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:36 pm

I don't need any help being confused Judy, LOL, i.e. doing fine on my own in that regard. I appreciate everyone trying to explain this to me, oil-painting is a bit complex.
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Crystal1



Posts: 561
Join date: 2010-02-05
Location Location: Ft Worth, TX

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:38 pm

Judy, I've noticed how hard it is to explain how walnut oil works. I usually say it makes the paint more fluid, while still adding more oil to the paint.

Dave, thank you for the information on how walnut oil works. I've used the walnut oil mixed with a little Artisan thinner for lower layers, too.

Dayle
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dbclemons



Posts: 154
Join date: 2009-11-16
Location Location: Texas

PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:10 pm

fancyhorse wrote:
...But what is it that makes the fast drying medium 'fast drying'?...

The typical ingredient is a chemical that actually dries (or oxidizes) the oil, called not surprisingly a drier. Cobalt is the most common, or manganese, lead... What specifically is included in the WMO mediums I can't say. It likely varies. They may also use an alkyd resin, which is not technically a drier, but causes oil to behave that way. Some mediums labeled "painting medium" may also contain a drier. Slow drying oils like safflower may also include driers.

One of the first things I do when I get a new tube of oil paint or medium is to test it out first to see how long it takes to dry. If it's dry to touch within a day or two I don't worry about it. If it takes longer than that then I use it more carefully.

Oil painting can be as complex as you want it to be.
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watermixableguy
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PostSubject: Re: fast drying medium/ and fat over lean   Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:22 am

I've used the Artisan fast drying medium, and it definitely sped up the drying process.

(watermixableguy sits back, his eyes getting misty as he gets ready to tell the tale...) "...It was early on, maybe 3 years ago. I was painting something on primed MDF board for a charity auction, and needed it dry enough to transport.
I had already painted the image once with the regular Artisan WMs, and it seemed to be taking forever (weeks) to dry enough to handle. The deadline was coming up fast.
So, I tried again, priming and painting another painting of the same subject, this time using the drying medium. It worked, and the painting was finished and safely transported to the auction.
Actually, I didn't care for the way the medium handled. It was as if I had added glue to the paint, making it a little stickier. And to my eye, it seemed to darken the tone of the paint ever so slightly. But it did the trick, by gum."(watermixableguy wonders if he is overdoing it with the pun)

"In terms of fat over lean, I believe using the quick drying medium is equivalent to adding regular medium to the paint. ie: it fattens the layer."

(watermixableguy sits up, jabbing the air with his paint brush as he talks) "I have learned the hard way about fat over lean. I have had painting layers crack. Not fun, but by golly, I read up on the theory, and believe I have it all figgered out now. Bottom layers lean, in fact, now, I even add a bit of thinner to the paint to make the base layers more lean. Each successive layer is less lean, that is, has less thinner, or more medium."
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