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 Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.

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Janet
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PostSubject: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:12 am

One thing that I find frustrating with Water Soluble Oils is the lack of demos in this medium. Most books that we end up buying are for conventional oils. Same goes for videos and demos on the web. I thought it might be a good idea to share a link to a demos in conventional oils and translate it to Water Soluble Oils. Both mediums and colors would need to be addressed. We need to address the translation for the brands we work with. Brands can be mixed but as soon as you add certain mediums that is no longer the case. I think if we can do this with several demos it would help me and I'm sure other artists working in Water Soluble Oils who run into the same problem.

Here's our first demo:

Demo of Model in Red Robes- Using brown underpainting by Philip Howe
http://www.philiphowe.com/id98.html

Medium
Liquin with some Walnut Oil

Colors
Burnt Umber

For this one he doesn't get into the colors that he used other then the underpainting. Burnt Umber is available in every brand of Water Soluble Oils so that's not a problem. So we're left with the medium. What would you use for a substitute to the Liquin with Walnut Oil?

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Callie
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:48 am

For the Liquin/walnut oil, just substitute a ws alkyd (quick dry medium). The Artisan quick-dry is most like Liquin (both W&N). Grumbacher Max has a good amount of "body" also. I think the Lukas quick-dry would be too thin.
Just add the walnut oil and there you go! The oil washes up with soap & water, so no problem there. The alkyd mediums do set up quickly, so a good brush cleaner like Aqua Sol (non-toxic) will keep your brushes from getting sticky and stiff over time.
The other medium that would work well for this would be Graham's Walnut Alkyd. It's a bit lighter than the Artisan quick-dry, so one could add a few drops of the Artisan to the walnut alkyd to beef it up.
I've used all of the above with all the brands of ws oils (except Weber - haven't tried them yet).
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:14 pm

Here's a few demos using ws oils (with no water or medium), also lots of info about ws oils:

http://www.buildart.com/secret_of_water_mixable_oils.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:47 am

Thank you Callie for the suggested subsitute! The WN quick dry sounds like a good subsitute for the liquin. Good to know that it works with all brands.

Thank you for the link to a WSO demo!

I wonder which ws oil would be closest to the Walnut Oil?

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:11 am

Here's a link to all of the available demos by Philip Howe: http://www.philiphowe.com/id71.html

One other medium that I keep reading about in these demos is mineral spirits. I would gather with the Holbein the subsitute would be water and with Winsor & Newton Artisan it would be the thinner. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:31 pm

I'd just use the walnut oil. It mixes well with the quick-dry mediums, works fine by its self and cleans up with soap & water. The only thing that doesn't work is mixing it with water - which isn't required for the demo.
The Artisan safflower oil is not as heavy as the linseed oil, so it might feel more like walnut oil, but since the walnut oil works - why bother?

When I first learned oil painting (back in the dark ages Laughing), I was shown how to use turpentine to thin the paint to either tone the canvas or begin the actual painting. The thinner paint is easy to wipe off (mistakes) and once you have the beginning the way you want it, it's easy to scrub/wipe the lighter areas and highlights off (no white to start with).

For the ws oils, a stiff brush, paper towels, or cue-tips (for small areas) and some water will lift the paint just fine. As for thinning the paint - whether with turpentine, ms, water or ws thinner - if it gets too thin, it won't adhere to the surface properly. So keep in mind, you don't want to swish it on like a watercolor wash!

I'll see if I can find some demos for the above. cyclops

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Callie's Demo has been moved to

http://watersolubleoils.forumotion.com/t654-paint-thinner-and-glazing-techniques
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Like a Star @ heaven I've used the Artisan thinner with Holbein Duo Aquas - so far, so good!
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Janet
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:01 pm

It's good to have options. For someone like me that has trouble sometimes finding certain products. Thank you Callie for the additional information and tips!

I've heard different opinions regarding the thinner and Holbein. I'll have to give it a try. Some people have stated it doesn't work so well. I'll try just water as well and see what the difference is.

I just love demos. I think this thread should be about adding as many threads that we can with demos. As we get our substitutes these demos will be much easier to follow.

Here's a link to demos from my favorite artists, Scott Burdick:

http://www.scottburdick.com/demonstrations.htm

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Callie
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:36 pm

Here's one example of starting with thinned paint (and 2 colors).

http://www.mightyartdemos.com/mightyartdemos-creevy.html

You can get an idea of the consistency of the paint - not watery - just enough to easily push it around. Look at the front, right apple in #3 then #4. It looks like he lifted some of the color to get back to the white highlight:




Notice the sponge roller >>>>>>>>>>>
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Callie, I'm glad you're having good results with the Artisan thinner and Holbien Aqua Duo. Do you get a quick, smooth mix, or was it a little gummy at first? That was the issue I had with them when I tried.
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:51 pm

Callie,
Thanks for showing this. Your approach is so different than what I've ever used. I have a lot to learn.

Judy

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:36 pm

Well. Judy - there's certainly no one right way to paint; different strokes for different folks! I've always envied artists that can just jump right in with a brush - with no drawing underneath. I tried it for the first time with the portrait in my signature line (woman in scarf). Now, when starting with a drawing, I don't bother with a lot of detail, just the basic forms/shapes. Just start thin and loose, wipe out as needed, and put the details in later.

Janet - I like Scott Burdick a lot, too. It's interesting to see his method. It looks like he uses some pretty thick paint right from the start and works from one area to the next (instead of all over). Works well for him!
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:34 am

This is a great thread with lots of interesting information. Thanks for starting it, Janet, and for posting the links.

Thanks for the nice little demo, Callie. It really shows the use of thinner well. It looks like a good method for drawing and blocking in - easy to adjust. You should be making your own instuctional videos. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:34 am

had to delete duplicate post.


Last edited by Sofie on Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:43 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Duplicate post)
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:34 am

This is a great thread with lots of interesting information. Thanks for starting it, Janet, and for posting the links.

Thanks for the nice little demo, Callie. It really shows the use of thinner well. It looks like a good method for drawing and blocking in - easy to adjust. You should be making your own instuctional videos. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:21 pm

Callie,

Your method might be a way for me to loosen up a bit. I'm such a detail person.

Judy

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:51 pm

Callie, Thank you so much for the link to a demo with working with thinned paint and creating a demo with the Holbein and W&N thinner. I'm so glad it works as it gives me another option and I love options.

I visit Scott Burdicks site on a regular basis. Would love to work with thicker paint like him but I think I'll need more control of the medium first before I venture out into really thick paint. I like the way he works one area to the next I think with practice this would be the method that suits me best. It's the way that I worked in colored pencil, acrylics and sometimes in Water soluble oils. Smile

Sofie, You're welcome! I'm glad your enjoying the thread! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:50 pm

Janet - Working with thinned paint and wiping out - you can also start with your local colors rather than a neutral/earthtone. Work out your values, proportions, etc., then use this as your "road map" to work over it with the thicker paint.

I'm thinking of glazing that apple, since we don't have any glazing demos yet.
Should I go ahead and give it some color?
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Apple Glazing Demo moved to

http://watersolubleoils.forumotion.com/t654-paint-thinner-and-glazing-techniques

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Judy - if you start this way, you have options; stop while it's still loose and sketchy, or keep working/refining until you reach a more detailed, polished piece.

Thanks Sofie - glad you found that interesting!
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:05 pm

Back to the Phillip Howe demos - This one shows a similar technique to the above. The difference is starting with a pretty detailed drawing, then putting a wash of oil color over it. He then wipes out the lights and roughs in the darker areas:

http://www.philiphowe.com/id100.html
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:12 pm

Thanks, Callie. Excellent demo. How long does it take this underpainting to touch dry?
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:35 am

Since the paint was thinned, it dried quickly. I didn't think to check it this morning, but this afternoon I felt it, and it was dry - not even tacky - dry enough to drag my finger across it without moving/lifting any paint. So within 24 hours at the most. Some info about Duo Aqua oils (from Dick Blick):

Duo dries much faster than traditional oil colors — in as little as 24
hours — and the colors dry uniformly. This makes it easier to plan for
overcoating, texturing, and correcting. It dries without the solvent
odor of a conventional oil paint. A cold environment does not affect
its drying capabilities.


I haven't found that they dry this quickly if used straight from the tube, unless they've been thinned or are spread very thin. Maybe it's too humid here
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:23 am

Callie, Thank you for the tip on using local color for wiping out! I would love do see the apple with color and a glazing demo please. artist Thank you for the link to the demo it's a good example of the wiping out technique.

Like Callie stated the Duo Aquas don't dry in 24 hours if the paint is applied thickly. I have noticed that they dry faster then some other brands but I think even applied thinly it depends on the color. I did find it unusual that Holbein would make this broad a statement. I did notice it dries faster then Grumbacher Max and W&N Artisan.

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:01 pm

Callie,
I finally got the Graham Walnut Alkyd today. Do you mind if I try to duplicate your demo? I've never painted the way you do, and I've only used the regular walnut oil. If it is OK with you, I'll try it and post it either here or in WIP.
Judy

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:27 pm

Judy - Go ahead and give it a try! I hope you like the walnut alkyd. Just be sure to give your brushes a good wash when your done (don't leave the alkyd to set up in them).

I'm thinking, maybe you should post here - you'll be using a regular oil medium with ws oils, it fits the theme here. Since we're adapting demos, it could be helpful to get your observations on using a traditional technique.
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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:15 am

Callie,

I couldn't wait until tomorrow. Here is the beginnings of the my apple using your technique. I now understand what you mean about thinning just enough to be able to push the paint around and scrub out highlight areas. It's a very interesting approach and does make me loosen up.



I used Artisan paints and the walnut alkyd. The picture looks a lot darker than the real painting, but I think I did not lighten it up as much as you did. I'll be curious to see how the alizarin crimson goes over the under painting.

Judy

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PostSubject: Re: Conventional Oils painting demos translated to WSOs.   Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:31 am

Callie, Thank you for sharing your glazing technique on the apple. Looks yummy! Smile

Judy, your apple is looking great! I'm looking forward to seeing your glazing step. Smile

When doing glazing do you need to stick to transparent colors or can you use semi transparent or semi opaque colors? From what I've read opaque colors should not be used I'm just wondering where the line is. I also remember reading that the values in your underpainting should be lighter then the true values. How many steps down in value do you think you need to go.?

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