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 What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?

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Janet
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:18 pm

I found this very good explanation of how oil paint dries:

"Oil paint, being oil-based, cures by oxidation. Oxygen in the air is attracted to the oil molecules in the wet paint and chemically combines with them to form linoxyn. The oxidized particles rise to the paint’s surface and dissipate into the air.

Four key variables affect the rate at which oil paint cures.

One, the proportion of oil to solvent in the paint formulation: the more oil, the longer it will take to cure.

Two, the thickness of your application: the thicker you lay on the paint, the more oxidation must occur and the longer it will take to cure.

Three, the colors you use: drying time depends on the type of pigments contained within the paint. For example titanium white (derived from titanium oxide) dries slowly but flake white (derived from lead) dries very rapidly.

Four, air circulation: the better the ventilation, the more quickly the oxidized particles will be whisked away.

Oil paints will dry to the touch between one and two weeks after application. Six months is the recommended cure time for oil paints before a varnish coat."

This sentence I think might be what's causing your problem "Four, air circulation: the better the ventilation, the more quickly the oxidized particles will be whisked away." Because you work in your basement it might be possible that their is a lack of ventilation.

A month still seems like an excessive amount of time. At most is takes about 4 to five days for mine to dry to the touch and that's with no medium.

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Callie
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:34 pm

If it's in a cool, dark place it's going to take longer to dry. I paint in an area with a ceiling fan on all the time, windows open when not too cold, and lots of light. Even without an alkyd medium, most of my paintings are touch-dry within days. (And we have a lot of humid weather here.)

I did read on a different forum about an artist who would put paintings in the back of his (or her?) car where they would be exposed to not only sunlight but the oven-like temperatures to speed the drying time

Sounds like you need to get your paintings out of the basement when they're finished and in between painting sessions
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:03 pm

Thank you I've made up some dry time samples of each paint color I'll leave a set in the basement and make up another set and bring up to my other studio. There's a draft in my wet studio (basement studio) that gives me good air flow, plus there's a heat duct in that room as well so in theory there should be plenty of ventilation.

I'll move some work upstairs and see if this helps with speeding up dry times.

Kimberly
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Callie
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:57 pm

Good experiment!
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:45 am

Kimberly, sounds like a great idea to test the drying times in different conditions. I hope you share your results as I'd be really interested in knowing the outcome. Smile

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DAK723

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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:45 am

Hi everyone! A couple comments and a question. Just reading over all the posts here and notice that there are always a lot of questions about mediums and fat over lean. Now, if you have a method and it works, please feel free to ignore the following comments! I don't want anyone to change what works, believe me!

One thing that I have found to be consistent in advice from most (not all, of course) how-to books I have read, is that it is preferable to use one medium throughout one painting. You can change the amount used, the ratio of oil to water or solvent if you mix your own, but things become unpredictable when switching from one medium to another. This is especially true when using Alkyd mediums. I corresponded recently with W&N about Liquin, but their reply was applicable to alkyds in general. Alkyds have contradictory properties. They are more flexible than oil mediums, which would make them good for upper layers of a painting (fat over lean can also be described as more flexible over less flexible). On the other hand, alkyds dry faster, making them more suitable for the under paintings and lower layers of a painting (slow drying over fast drying). Therefore, determining whether layers painted with alkyds are "fatter" or "leaner" is not possible in a reliable way. So, again, the recommendation is to use only one medium (in this case the alkyd medium) for any one painting. Again, because of the contradictory nature of Alkyds, they recommend using a similar amount of medium in each layer. What to avoid, they said, were layers with considerable differences in the amount of medium.

All that being said, if things are working for you, don't change just because of one person's advice. I will also add that I have corresponded a number of times with different technical support from W&N and Gamblin, and their interpretations of "fat over lean" have not been the same!

One question regarding the (relatively) new Thinner from W&N. Can it be used successfully with Grumbacher Max or Holbein Duos? Anyone have experience with the Thinner and mediums from other brands? Thanks in advance for any replies!

Don
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Janet
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:10 am

Hi Don! Thank you for the tips!

Regarding the thinner and Holbein Duo Aqua, Callie did a Demo in this thread using the W&N thinner and the Duo brand WSOs here: http://watersolubleoils.forumotion.com/water-soluble-oils-f5/conventional-oils-painting-demos-translated-to-wsos-t110.htm

I did purchase some meaning to try it but I haven't tried it yet. Smile

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Callie
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:09 pm

I've heard from others that the WN thinner doesn't work well with Duo Aquas - but I've had no problems with it - works just fine. I only have a few Max colors, but so far the thinner has been OK with whatever paints I use.

Thanks for the advice about mixing mediums. I'm too lazy to want to complicate my painting process, so I tend to use just the walnut alkyd from start to finish. For painting quickly (like outside), I like to mix a little bit of thinner with the alkyd. But that's ala-prima, so no layers to worry about.
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Wed May 12, 2010 11:53 am

I finally found the Artisan WS thinner when I was in Australia - none of the stores here on the BC west coast carry it. I enjoy working with it, especially for getting the initial areas of colour down - and for plein air painting too. It wakes a nice, fast drying surface to get back into and develop with thicker paint. I've also mixed a bit with the quick dry medium, which i find is too sticky, like honey.

I've also got the Walnut oil alkyd, Artisan WS medium and the stand oil which I mainly use for glazing, but I think I prefer the walnut oil alkyd - the quicker drying time is again a factor - but it has been great to have all three to compare an experiment with.
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Wed May 12, 2010 10:13 pm

Thanks for your input, Sofie. I'm glad you could finally try the Artisan thinner. I am kind of surprised that none of the other brands have come out with a thinner.
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Thu May 13, 2010 9:40 am

Hi all,

This may have been discussed before, but I was using the Artisan Fast Dry medium with the Holbein Duo paints, and it seemed to work ok at first, but after a couple of days of use, the two didn't mix at all; and created a gloppy, sticky mass in my utility sink. I had to resort to mineral spirits to try and clean the sink and the brushes. I have ordered some of the Holbein fast dry so will see if it is better. I have a feeling the chemistry between the Artisan products and the Holbein is very different.
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Thu May 13, 2010 10:12 am

I think a few of us have found the Artisan quick-dry to be rather thick and gummy even with Artisan paints. I add thinner to it when I use it, but I much prefer the Graham's walnut-alkyd (lighter, more fluid). I would guess you'll have better results with the Holbein quick-dry. Let us know what you think of it!

Almost forgot - whatever you use, use the smallest amount possible. Too much medium (of any kind) is not a good thing!
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Thu May 13, 2010 1:54 pm

Thank you for sharing Song Dog! I was wondering how the Artisan Fast Dry medium would work with the Holbein and now I know I won't bother. I haven't tried the Holbein fast dry yet and interested in hearing your thoughts on the the product. I've used the Lukas Berlin Quick drying medium and that seems to work well. It certainly dries really fast. I think you have a point regarding the chemistry because water with the Holbein seems to work just fine but with the Artisan you need to be very careful no to add too much. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Fri May 14, 2010 10:48 am

OOps I'm on a different planet. I have only paint out of the tube, walnut oil from the local supermarket, and water. I'd get totally confused if I had to add more mediums.
I'm quite likely wrong, but I am happy in my ignorance.
lol!
Jack
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Fri May 14, 2010 11:28 am

Jack, I'd keep doing what you're doing because your art is fantastic. So you've obviously found what works for you. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Fri May 14, 2010 1:56 pm

Jack, keeping it simple is the way to go. If one starts bringing in all sorts of concoctions for various painting stages, there's a good chance there could be problems in the future!
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:30 pm

When I find a land scape or sea scape I like. I then try to project on my canvas and draw it. my goal is to paint from a picture. I gesso my canvas, let it dry and then draw the projected pic on the canvas. I want to be able to see my lines as I apply thin layers. pls. advise what is best medium to use. I'm totally new to this type of painting. I bought Winsor & Newton Artisan WSPaints. I've got to buy mediums. santa
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:28 pm

Hi Ronnie,

If you are a newcomer, I would strongly recommend staying away from Artisan. You will run into paint tackiness. I would suggest that you use Holbein and use a limited palette.

If you want to paint in thin layers, I recommend Artisan thinner, It thins the paint quite well. However, Holbein is the only one that thins with water without any issues. (I believe Cobra also, as mentioned by one of our members).

How much to thin is a personal choice. You have to experiment.

Good luck

Faisal

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PostSubject: Help with Safflower Oil   Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:47 pm

Hi Callie, Would you pls tell me how to use Safflower oil, I live in the country and its hard to find walnut oil. I want to gesso first then apply a medium for easy flow of paint. I really don't know how to use it. I'm just starting out in ws oils. I've only painted with acrylics.\Thanks Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:26 pm

Hi Ronnie. Callie isn't active on the forum anymore, but I would assume that you use safflower oil sparingly in the same manner as was described in other posts to you regarding walnut oil. the walnut oil, by the way can be the Graham's artist walnut oil or walnut oil from the grocery store. they are both the same.

Judy

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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:32 pm

Thanks Judy, Do you know the name of the walnut oil at the grocery store? and what store none of ours carriers it.
Thanks again and Happy New Year!!
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:58 pm

There are all different brands, but you usually have to go to a grocery store that carries more natural foods. Sorry I couldn't help you more.

I have a college near by that has an art department in their bookstore and I can usually get it there for a reasonable price.

You can order it through
http://www.dickblick.com/
or http://www.jerrysartarama.com/

Judy

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PostSubject: Using walnut oil may have been a mistake.   Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 pm

I've been painting for several years using a combination of Artisan oils, water, and Artisan thinner which seems to work quite well.
Yesterday in class, I decided to try Graham Walnut Oil.

My teacher warned me that I might see a shinier finish with the walnut oil, but I didn't use very much and didn't expect any problems.
Now I have a horizontal band where I painted a section of the sky and the medium seems to be beading up through the paint. Normally,
it would be somewhat dry by now, but this isn't even close.

My question is, is this result normal with walnut oil, and is there any way to reverse or diminish the effect at this point?

Thanks, Rich
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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Wed May 07, 2014 8:54 pm

You will have this blotchy effect whenever you use a medium. At least the ones I have used, such as Walnut oil, Linseed oil, Safflower oil, clove oil. (I don't' think Maroger causes this, but I have not tried it).

This is normal and the only way to neutralize this is to put a coat of varnish and that takes care of this 100%. Do read up on the internet on the different types of Varnishes and the finish, i.e. Matte, Gloss etc. Some you can apply immediately while in some cases you have to wait for 6months before application.

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PostSubject: Re: What mediums (if any) do you use with ws oils?   Thu May 08, 2014 8:59 pm

My concern is that you say you are getting beading up through the paint. I use walnut oil all the time and have never had that happen. I never use water to thin my WSO only artisan thinner on lower layers and walnut oil in fatter layers above.

I'm wondering if the fact that some of the lower paint was thinned with water, if this is the problem. I'm just guessing, but oil over water is not a good mix. Try not using any water on lower layers and see if the same thing happens.

What Faisal said about varnishing is what i always do to even out the paints and it works very well.

Hope that helps.

Judy

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