Revisiting mediums, Reviews and Restarting a painting after it has dried to the touch

Hi All!

Just got my new computer up and running and found y'all again. Had to find Janet on the Cobra Facebook page where she posted the link to get back here lol. Thanks Janet and Congrats on winning a set of paints!

I just spent the entire morning re-reading all the info you all have so generously shared here. Of great interest was the use of mediums as this is my biggest problem with painting with W/S oils. After going to two workshops this Spring with traditional oil artists, they sure made me unhappy about my paints. Just FYI, I have Artisans, Max, Lukas Berlin, Holbein Duo and now a few Cobra. I parked the Artisan and Max after I got the Holbein and never looked back. I found the Artisan and Max paints were stiff, gloppy and sticky. What a mess. I do love the Holbein paints but I have some issues with their mediums (I'll get to that down below). Lukas makes juicy paints as well so I use a few of their colors as well. The Cobras were hot off the presses and I took them to the seminars to share with everyone to see how they all liked them. I was the only one with W/S oils and everyone was interested in trying them. The Cobra are very similar to the Holbein and I cannot live without their Transparent Oxide Red. The color from Rembrandt has been a staple in traditional oil painting at least on my palette. It's great for warming and toning colors - not as orangy as burnt sienna and much more transparent. How excited I was when they included this color into their line. The Cobras have a nice consistency as well. I will be adding other Cobra colors over time as I am almost out of the tubes I have. The fact that they are pigment rich and professional grade like Duo also is great. Mixing the Holbein, Lukas and Cobra work fine so far. But the medium selection is still a problem.

The other artists, when not playing with my paints, used tradional oils and all used liquin, which usually makes me sick. During the first seminar I had some Cobra and Holbein mediums to test. I have learned that Holbein Duo and Cobra can both be thinned with straight water - a little or alot - without much of a problem - unless the paint begins to dry and then it may get a bit sticky. The same cannot be said for Artisan or Max, which require a medium or thinner. I use straight water for the underpainting - well my first painted "drawing" step. The Artisan thinner with Holbein or Cobra seem to make the paint sticky as do all the Artisan products in my experience.

I tried some of the Holbein painting medium and the odor was so strong it got me and the rest of the room sick immediately. I pulled out the Cobra painting medium, which was more tolerable and proceeded to lay in my later steps. It didn't take long for the paint to seize up and get sticky. Of course everyone started complaining about the sticky paint and pulled out a new canvas to redo their pictures with "their" paints and liquin. Then I got the lecture about liquin and how it was so wonderful and how W/S oils just didn't work. They had all been enjoying the W/S oils up until the mediums were pulled out. Truly they found little difference as the Duos and Cobras were creamy and luxurious. But now they were a sticky slow moving mess. Blech! I wanted to cry. I hadn't painted in a long time and refused to walk away from the W/S oils as they were my only way to paint with oils. I put my canvas aside and started a new one with straight water solubles (after I used the water thinned step to lay in my first drawing). I tried the traditional oils with the liquin on a friends canvas and they did moved and blended like a dream. Mine were second best but were still fine - without any medium. So I parked my mediums and just went at it. Of course, my painting got pretty wet and thick so I stopped before making mud, keeping my colors vibrant and lovely (I was working with still life fresh flowers and fruit) and started a second picture leaving the other one to dry a bit for the next day. The next day people tried the W/S paints again with no mediums and the paint worked fine but they still preferred the blendability they got from the traditional oils and liquin.

My intent was not to convert but to provide options for people painting with oils and concerned about issues like allergies and hazards. There are still hazards with W/S oils as I use the cads and cobalts, etc. But I still feel they are far more benign from a cleanup standpoint especially. Okay, I agree that the traditional oils and the liquin felt great, but the liquin did give me a riproaring headache. I do like the result of my paintings once I get into it - albeit there is a bigger challenge with the W/S oils - or should I say a large learning curve! I guess had I not tried the liquin and regular oils I would have not known the brighter side of easy blending. But I still feel that there has to be some mediums out there to use, especially for later layers and for glazing.

The second seminar rolled around and the same result. If the rest of the artists could have doused me with liquin they would have. So okay, I cried uncle. I was told that Masters Paint cleaner would clean my brushes - no solvent required. Or a friend said she would clean them for me. I put a dollop of liquin on my W/S oil palette and went at it. Maybe it was the Liquin that was the key! Nope. Not the miracle stuff everyone claimed it was. My painting was sticky and gummy. Yech! Another canvas down the drain - and the painting was looking so nice too. Well, of course, I had no luck in the past with W/N Artisan mediums so why would I think that a W/N Liquin would work with Duo or Cobra, which seem to respond similarly. That was dumb.

I did have some Duo Linseed oil with me. What the heck is wrong with the cap? I had to pretty much break it open and then throw out the bottle at the end of the day because I couldn't close it. Well that's another story, isn't it. A little voice that sounded like Janet Couture's popped up in my head. Somewhere (here or WetCanvas?) I remembered she mentioned mixing linseed oil with water and she too uses Holbein. I generally stay away from linseed oil because it yellows. (Y'all, what is your experiences with linseed oil yellowing??) On my second attempt I mixed the linseed oil with water - half and half. Bless you! It worked like a charm. It actually felt like the liquined traditional paint did! I instantly stuck my tongue out - in my mind of course lol - at all the naysayers and traditional oil snobs that made me so miserable.

So now here come the big questions. I have straight water as my first step thinner. I have linseed oil and water halved for a painting medium as the painting goes on and I am trying to blend more. How bad will it yellow my paintings? Will it increase drying time? And what do you suggest for glazing - if more linseed oil is the only answer won't that surely yellow the painting? I use alot of whites and blues, which will turn yellow and green if I use too much. Thinning the paint with water to glaze will go against fat over lean so that is not an option.

And lastly, once a painting is started, I usually was able to work til I dropped and finish it for the most part in one sitting. Now I can't sit that long (don't ask lol) and I have been painting very wet so I need to let it at least dry a day or two so I don't get mud. Some of the paintings are from the Spring that I wish to finish. I have heard you need to use retouch varnish to be able to blend into the painting. Aside from the limited mediums, I have never seen retouch varnish for our paints. Any ideas?

I apologize for being so long but I thought some of the experiences I have had might be helpful. Thanks in advance for your ideas and answers to my questions. Like I said, there is a steep learning curve - at least for me.

Happy painting, Bliss

Welcome back Bliss and thank you for such a detailed explanation of all the woes at the seminars. My solution to the medium problem is using walnut oil, just a dab on the brush from off the palette and into the paint to blend to eh consistency I want. I use artisans all the time now without the stickiness since switching and it does not bother my asthma.

I tried walnut alkyd for a fast drying medium, and it worked very well, but it did bother my breathing so I only use it when I'm painting outside. The only time I use water is to wash my brush and then I use Masters Cleaner to recondition the brush after cleaning with dish soap.

Hope you share some of your paintings with us. It sounds like you had quite an experience.

Judy

Hopefully I will address your questions, even if I don't go at them one at a time!

As you probably know, if you like the way the paint handles without medium then you don't need to use a medium. From what I have heard, the Cobras are a bit creamier than other brands and are less likely to need medium to make them flow better. I don't use a medium about 90% of the time.

Linseed oil has generally been considered to be the best oil binder for oil paint for a long time. The majority of oil paints are made with linseed oil and linseed has been the preferred oil in mediums, too. If it really yellowed so badly, artists would have stopped using it years ago. Yes, it will yellow over time, but the amount of yellowing is very overrated, in the opinion of many. Most of the oils will yellow somewhat (yes, linseed will yellow the most) but Walnut and Poppy yellow, too. It would be the most noticeable if you use a lot of extra oil in your medium - and even then mostly in the white areas of your painting. Most recommended mediums are a mixture of oil and either a solvent or alkyd resin. Your 50/50 oil and water mix would be exactly that - so the linseed is already diluted. The biggest yellowing factor occurs when you let your paintings dry in the dark. If this happens, expose them to direct sunlight and they should be OK. Also, don't put down a layer of oil as a temporary or final varnish. Putting down a layer of oil without paint in it - this is true of most of the oils, including walnut - will yellow more noticeably.

If you like the 50/50 linseed oil and water mix, then you can use that throughout your painting. You can use the same formula for glazing. If you like to add more oil in subsequent layers to ensure fat over lean, then you can start with 33%oil/67% water for the first layers, 50/50 for the middle layers, 67%water/33% oil for the top layers - or something like that.

Hope this helps!

Don

Thanks for the quick reply.

Judy, I had tried the walnut oil but it too yellows as Don mentioned but the biggest problem I have with it is it makes the paint take longer the dry. I do like diluting the paints with water to wash in the "underpainting". When I then start having my way with the canvas, sometimes I start getting thick and the paint doesn't blend quite as well. That's when the medium is useful and the half and half solution worked nicely. Since I like to be detailed as well, having a thinner paint in parts of the painting is very useful. I guess I could use the half anf half mixture as well for glazing. I will try and add a little more like Don suggested if I need it really thin for glazes in the end. Most of the picture is done with straight paint though. Some of my work is smooth and some textured like the sunflowers I started in the workshop.

What I still need to know how to deal with is the restart of a partially or totally dried painting. Since I had to stop painting for a few months, I have all this work I really would like to finish. And I sometimes need to work on multiple paintings so some dry while I get busy with others. Since the paint is no longer blendable and has submerged into the canvas, the new paint without some sort of "retouch varnish" - none available in W/S oils - will just sit on top of the dried work. Any ideas?

Thanks again. And BTW, I'll be happy to post a picture when I actually finish one lol.

As far as I know, a retouch varnish can be made by thinning varnish 50/50 with a thinner. Artisan has a line of wso varnishes and a wso thinner, so you should be able to make a retouch varnish with these products. I haven't tried it yet, but I intend to as soon as I get the varnish and thiner that I have on order.

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to in regards to continuing with paintings that are already dry. Normally, when working in layers, the intent is to let the layers dry so that those layers are undisturbed by the new layers. Paintings with glazing layers would be the prime example, but you don't need to glaze to work in multiple layers. It sounds like you want to blend into the dried paint, but I don't think that is possible. Once the paint layer is dry you don't want to mess with it.

If your painting has been dry for a few days, then you can probably begin painting without any preparation. Some people like to put a thin layer of medium on the surface - either painting into the medium, or just letting the medium settle into the canvas and then wiping off the excess. This makes the surface a bit more receptive to the paint and keeps it from beading up. But it is not intended to soften the existing paint so that you can continue to paint wet into wet.

While retouch varnish is often suggested to be used for oiling out paintings or preparing older paintings for newer paint, you are better off just using a medium or oil. Varnishes are made for protecting finished paintings. As Sofie has mentioned, a retouch or temporary varnish is usually just a thinned down final varnish. The best use for such a varnish is if you need to to varnish a painting before the usual 6 to 12 month time limit has elapsed.

I believe that almost all mediums that contain oil will increase drying time unless they also include a drier or resin - so basically this means the vast majority of mediums will increase drying time. Alkyd mediums can speed up drying, thus the popularity of Liquin. I think one of the new Cobra mediums contains an alkyd, but I'm not sure. Many folks here mention that they like to use Graham's Walnut oil medium. Graham also makes an alkyd medium - their Walnut Alkyd medium. This should dry quicker than just walnut oil. At least theoretically!

I hope I have answered your question.

Don

Usually, if a painting is just partially dry, you can continue to paint on it, but as Jack has said you can't blend into the old paint. I have heard of people returning to a painting that has dried for months or years, and the new paint won't stick. When that happens they usually just add a very thin coat of oil to the old painting, let it set for a couple of hours, then wipe it off with a paper towel. Then the new paint should stick to the old. The most common oil that I have heard used is linseed oil, so that should be no problem for you. One of the worse things you can do is put a coat of oil on top of the painting, with no paint in it, and just let it dry--that will definitely make it yellow more. Good Luck!!
Dayle

I guess the problem I was worried about wasn't so much blending into the old paint but that the new layer of paint would not adhere well. With acrylics, I never worried about picking up a project later as the paint always dried quickly and unless you are working with extenders to create more open time for wet on wet, it was more desirable to let it dry, then paint the next step. With oils, it's a whole new thing for me.

Would I use the linseed oil straight or use the half and half mixture to apply on the painting, then wipe it off and start to paint? Or should I just add some of that medium mixture to the paint and start painting again?

Thanks for the help.

One clarification on the walnut oil, the only time I have had it yellow was when I used too much. I avoid this by putting a small puddle of the oil on my pallet and then dipping just the tip of the brush into it to pick up a small amount. Most times that is all it takes if the paint is too thick. Usually I don't add any oil. For washes, I also only add a very smooth amount and then just spread paint out over the area being washed. The oil just allows the paint to spread easier so I can make it as glazed as I want without really diluting the paint.

I have used the WM linseed oil, but I am just too sensitive to it. It effects my breathing just as much as the regular linseed oil so the walnut oil is the best choice for me.

Judy

brushstrokebliss wrote:

Would I use the linseed oil straight or use the half and half mixture to apply on the painting, then wipe it off and start to paint? Or should I just add some of that medium mixture to the paint and start painting again?

Thanks for the help.

Normally, I don't do anything special to start painting my next layer on a dried painting. If it has been a long time between layers - or if you notice the paint beading up and not adhering properly - I would use your usual medium mixture and brush on a thin coat. No reason to wipe it off if you are going to paint right into it, unless you have too much medium on the painting. Many people prefer to use this method to paint with their medium - rather than adding medium to your paint piles. Adding a thin layer of medium first, and then using paint without medium, makes it easier to control the amount of medium and keep it consistent.

Don

Thanks for clarifying the use of walnut oil, Judy. The only thing I was surprised by was your use of the oil for washes. Usually washes are in a first step and thinner (in my case I use water as the W/N Artisan thinner doesn't work well with my Holbein - Callie, don't know how you get it to work. The the oil/medium would be used in subsequent layers thus fattening up the paint and getting it "thinner" or more blendable at the same time. I guess you are talking about those later stages and using the oil to loosen up the paint.

And Thanks Don for answering my question about painting over older paint. I was indeed stalled with a bunch of unfinished paintings calling my name. My question actually evolved from some traditional oil artists telling me I needed something to make the oil stick or bring the paint back to the original shine and state as it was before it dried. As you pointed out, many times we will wait for the paint to dry or at least tack up before we move on to other layers if we are not painting in one sitting. Sometimes I can do that if it is not a complicated painting. But especially painting flowers or patterned fabric or vases, where there is a lot of detail, it takes me longer.

I really didn't know that there would have been any issue since I came from painting with acrylics. And frankly, traditional oil teachers have not been helpful with these issues as they have no experience with these paints. Bless you all for being here on this new adventure - which is getting more fun by the minute. I love the hand holding, the frendship and the support.

Hugs, Bliss

Bliss, I used the wrong term. I don't use it for washes, I use it for glazing as I described above. Sorry. My under layers are usually acrylic and then I put a very thin film of walnut oil over the whole painting and then start with the WSO. Does that make more sense?

Judy

Yep. That makes good sense Judy. Thanks for clarifying.

I have to wonder if Duo Aquas have changed over the years - I bought mine several years ago, and they were far from smooth/creamy. More like dried out toothpaste. Maybe that's why the Artisan thinner works so well with mine
No matter which brand I use, Graham's walnut alkyd is my favorite medium (no allergies here). Early on in a painting, I mix a few drops of thinner into it, final layers have straight walnut alkyd.

Callie,

I envy you with no allergies. The walnut alkyd was just what I was looking for until I realized I was wheezing a lot more. Outside I'm fine with it.

Judy

I have been using Max wso since they first came out, a long time. I have always laid down a wash of usually raw umber and lots of water and wiped off the excess to begin a painting. I have never had a problem with water and Max mixing well. Just recently I have started using a little linseed oil and will now try the half and half mixture and perhaps the walnut oil. Do you suggest that I not try both in the same painting? Holbein paints are just a little too expensive for my pocketbook and I can always get the Max to do what I want even if they have a little more drag to them than Holbein. I have not tried Cobra. I do know that Holbein and Artisan paints do not mix well with Max. Some are shinier and will give shiny and dull sections on the painting. I have a lot of Max and I do not wish to invest in another set of paints so I guess I will stick to what I have been doing for years with good results. I really like this forum and reading what others do with these paints. Terry

Hi Terry.

Glad you are comfortable with the Grumbacher Max paints. I started with them and they worked fine for painting thin layers. Most of my birds are done in them and they are lovely. Water did get it sticky and I didn't like the drag. I came from painting with acrylics and wanted the open time, and the blending and spreadability of the oils. Without mediums (the QuickDry made them sticky for me as well) I guess they work fine. Adding water to them did not work for me.

What I love about Holbein (and Cobra now as well) is that they are heavily pigmented and buttery. They are more expensive but they move, are rich and cover better, in my opinion. Of course, Max is also professional quality but I find them very stiff as opposed to its sister school quality, Max 2, which spreads easier. I have drawers of Max and Artisan which are only used if I need a special color. Otherwise, I stay with the Holbein. BTW, I'm finding the Cobra paint works well with the Holbein, but both brands of medium still needs some experimenting.

Ultimately, whatever works for you will get you painting. Its great that you have a handle on the Max and it works well for you. They have a good range of colors. Nice to hear about other folks experiences with these paints and how they use them. Welcome to the forums. Hope to see you around here more.

Has anyone had any experience with mixing Max paints with Cobra. I would like to try the Cobra, but have not had any luck mixing Max with Holbein or Artisan. Thanks, Terry

TerryS wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with mixing Max paints with Cobra. I would like to try the Cobra, but have not had any luck mixing Max with Holbein or Artisan. Thanks, Terry

Just curious as to what problems you are having when mixing Max with these others. Is it the paints themselves - or the mediums?

Haven't tried the Cobras yet, but would be interested in responces to your question as 90% of my WSOs are MAX!

Don

I did a painting with a dark background mixed with burnt umber and ultramarine blue. I ran out of ultra bl. and used holbein ultra blue on the right side behind the figure of Jesus. The whole side was streaked with a shine where the blue was heavier and much shinier than the other side. I don't know if all the colors would react the same, but I don't want to take any chances with another painting. This one was hard to fix. I had to remove most of the background almost down to the canvas and repaint with Max when I was able to get more. I had a similar problem with one of the Artisan colors and did not try any others. Could be just certain colors. I wasn't using any medium, just water in the beginning wash as a foundation for the painting. I was perfectly happy with the Max until I read how people loved the Holbein and Cobra. I actually did not find any difference in the spread-ability of the Holbein ultra bl. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

Good to hear someone else uses primarily Max paints. Terry

You probably know this, but the glossiness of the paint usually has to do with the amount of oil (which is glossy) in your paint. So it is not uncommon for paintings to have glossy and matte areas, as some pigments (regardless of brand) have more oil in the tube than others. Now, it is possible - as the MAX are usually considered thicker or stiffer - that they have less oil in the tube than some of the other brands. But if it is that noticeable, then is it possible that the glossy areas are those done without water and the matte areas done with water? Mixing with water makes the paint very matte, as you significantly lower the percentage of oil in the paint mixture.

I've always found the MAX brand to work fairly well, although they do have stiffness issues in some tubes. Since I don't like to use medium, I would definitely like to try the Cobras, since they are reportedly much less stiff (meaning more oil in the tubes). If I get some, I will test out the glossiness issue compared to the MAX

Don

I too found that even with a little bit of water added to the Max paints, it left matte spots as opposed to the Holbein. Some people have told me that I did not mix the water and the Max enough to get it to work. However, the biggest problem with both the Max and Artisan was using any water in them at all as it left the paint sticky or gummy - no matter how much I mixed them up. The Artisan does have a thinner that seems to work exclusively with the Artisan paints in place of water thinning but I find them sticky and stiff as well.

When I used Max I learned to be careful to use it very thinly and use no water or mediums with it to paint. If I mixed my palette using colors from other brands I found that I did get matte areas occasionally. It seemed as though the Holbein kept its shiny quality but the others when diluted did not. And if the colors were mixed across brands it also became dull with the addtion of water. As Don pointed out, it could be color specific. I used the Max a long while ago so it was all an experiment that left me very unsatisfied. Interestingly, I do not get very matte areas with Holbein even when it is thinned with water. It does seem alot creamier and oilier that the Max or Artisan. I have some Cobra and that sometimes bleeds oil when extruded from the tube. It too is very buttery and creamy - with some colors even looser than the Holbein.

With the Holbein and Cobra, water seems to be no problem as both can even be used with airbrushing. I was told that it will not break down any binders either, even if excessivew water is used. That has made life easier since now I can wash in the underpainting or drawing without a problem and work up to straight paint. I now also have an oil medium by using the Holbein linseed oil and water mixture half and half. I use that towards the end or to glaze. Its the first medium I have used that didn't make the paint sticky.

The Holbein and Cobra chemists told me that they do not use the same surficants or emulsifiers as the other companies use in their W/S oils. I guess that is why they are so incompatible with the other brands.

I don't know why your paints become sticky with water. I am starting a new painting now and was just laying in the buildings and figures with a lot of water and a little raw umber, just to get a placement. It doesn't matter if the painting is very shiny. I don't especially want that. I get a satin looking finish, not shiny or dull, certainly not matte, and the final spray varnish gives as much or as little shine as I want. Maybe the paints have changed since you used them or perhaps I am so used to the way they work, it doesn't bother me that they drag a little, only a lot if the paint has been sitting for a couple of days and I can still work with it. Not all of them drag, some are very creamy and flow very well. If I can learn how to post pictures, I will put some up for you to see. Terry

Sorry it is so big. I just couldn't seem to make it any smaller no matter what I did. Terry