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 What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?

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What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?
W&N Artisans
35%
 35% [ 17 ]
Holbein Duo Aqua
22%
 22% [ 11 ]
Royal Talens H2Oils
2%
 2% [ 1 ]
Royal Talens Cobra
14%
 14% [ 7 ]
Lukas Berlin
14%
 14% [ 7 ]
Grumbacher Max
12%
 12% [ 6 ]
Weber wOil
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 49
 

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PostSubject: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:25 am

Share the brand of Water Soluble Oils you use and why you chose that brand.


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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:13 am

I use the Holbein Duo Aqua and Lukas Berlin. I find that they're very creamy and appear to react better to the addition of water then some of the other brands. I use 1/2 water and 1/2 linseed oil as my medium so that's important to me.

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:31 pm

I use WN WMO. I alter the consistency by using M. Graham's walnut oil rather than any water. It only takes a very small amount to get the effect I want. The paint still remains water soluble and washes up with soap and water. I like the Masters Brush Cleaner and Preservative best because it keeps my brushes so well.

I find that small amount of water make the paint very tacky. Water works fine for a glaze, but tends to be flat. I like the slight gloss the walnut oil gives.

Judy

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:19 pm

I haven't tried the walnut oil yet but I did buy some. I think I'll give it a shot on one of the challenges photos. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:04 pm

Just remember to use only a little bit. I put a small amount on of my palette and then dip my brush into it. I think you will really like it.

Judy

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:09 am

Holbein's Duo is the brand I prefer due to their overall consistent handling quality and pigment load. There was a time when their color selection was too limited, but that's since been improved.

I don't see Grumbacher's MAX paints in the list, which I also use and would be my 2nd choice. They appear to have a good pigment load as well, but the consistency is not quite as good as Holbein, or at least wasn't (I haven't bought any new paints of theirs in awhile.) Below them I would rank W&N and then the others.
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:06 am

Dave, thank you for pointing out that Grumbacher Max was missing. I've added it to the poll. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:06 am

I prefer Holbein, but can only afford Artisan, which I also like a lot. I received a free Artisan sample set given out at an art design class I took many years ago. I didn't start using them until a few years later. I have never used traditional oils, so didn't know what to expect. I was used to acrylics so was a little frustrated with Artisan's stiffness and tricky thinning with water.

I splurged on a set of tiny tubes of Holbein a couple of years ago and fell in love. Thus began my quest to get my Artisans to handle a nicely as Holbeins. I've developed an easily manageable system using Artisan painting medium, thinner, and oil that gives the Artisans comparable handling to Holbein.
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:16 am

Hi Debra! Welcome to the WSOs forum! Your knowledge regarding WSOs is greatly appreciated. Do you mix all three mediums together? I would be interested in knowing more about your system. I'm using the Holbein now but the Artisan would be easier for me to find. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:10 pm

Quote :
I was used to acrylics so was a little frustrated with Artisan's stiffness and tricky thinning with water.

Hi Debra,

Welcome to the forum. I had the same frustration with WN at first until someone told me about walnut oil. I almost never add water unless I'm doing a very thin wash. I get the consistency exactly how I want with a very small amount of the oil and I don't have to buy other mediums unless I want it to dry faster.

Someone also told me to keep the walnut oil in the refrigerator when not using it which reduces the chance of the oil going rancid, a problem I never had with walnut oil before or after I refrigerated, unlike the linseed oil.

judy

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:01 pm

I recently bought a tube of Artisan cerulean, mainly since they're one of the few who don't substitute that color with a hue replacement. It works fine. My disatisfaction with the Artisans I have is a lack of consistency between colors and a lower pigment load than I'd prefer. Artisans also tend to be the easiest to find.

What I mainly don't like about Lukas Berlins is that there are too many color mixes and hues, otherwise they're not too bad. The other brands seem too much like student grade paints.
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:57 pm

Janet, I start by adding a couple of drops of Artisan painting medium per inch or so of paint and mix thoroughly with a palette knife. This step alone brings the paint to a consistency similar to out-of-the-tube Holbeins.

If i want the mix to be more fluid and leaner (in the early layers), I pull some to the side and add a drop or two of Artisan thinner. If I want the mix to be more fluid and fatter (in the later layers), I add a couple of drops of Artisan linseed oil. The middle layers can be medium only.

WN says that the very first layer, for drawing in your main objects, say, or doing a washy value sketch, can use a substantial amount of thinner and no medium, like doing a turp wash in traditional oils. Subsequent layers, whether with thinner or oil added, should also have painting medium or fast drying medium to maintain proper adhesion and drying. The object is to make sure no layer is leaner than a layer below it or fatter than a layer above it.

Judy, unfortunately, I have an aversion to the feel of oily things. The thinner has really helped with that - I also use it to remove leftover paint from my brush between color changes and before I wash them at the end of the day. I like all my mediums/additives to be wm - I I love you I love you I love you the easy cleanup. I don't use water at all any more except for the final cleanup.

David, by lack of consistency in color in Artisans, do you mean from one tube to another of the same Artisan color or between other brands?
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:37 pm

Hi Debra,

It sounds like you have it well under control. I had tried the thinner from WN when I first started before they improved it and was very discouraged with it. I understand it is much better now, but the walnut oil works so well for me, I have no desire to try their thinner again.

As far as cleanup, I also use a little walnut oil to wipe off the brushes before cleaning. Even with the walnut oils, the paint remains water-soluble and cleans up easily. I like to use The Masters Brush cleaner and preservative because it keeps the brushes so good.

It is just so nice to have so many alternatives to use rather than the turps and other solvents I had to use with regular oils. My asthma and lungs really appreciate the change.

Judy

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:21 pm

Judy, is it possible it was the quick-dry medium rather than the thinner that you didn't like? The original wm quick-dry was terrible - it hardened in the unopened bottles on the store shelf. That has been improved, and from what I hear is very good. It would be used with or instead of the regular wm painting medium.

The thinner is a very new product, I think less than 2 years, and as far as I know has not been reformulated. It is quite different from the quick dry medium. The thinner behaves much like turpentine or other solvent, except you probably couldn't soften dried paint with it. I use it instead of water.

A layer with thinner added touch-dries very quickly - within hours or a couple of days depending on the percentage used, thickness of the layer, substrate, etc. But it's very lean, whereas a layer with quick dry that also dries fairly quickly is fatter along the same lines as the wm painting medium. The quick dry and wm painting medium both contain oil; the thinner does not.

My (non-scientific) guess is that the quick-dry contains more resin or other drying agent to speed up the oil drying, while the thinner causes the percentage of oil in the mix to be less so it dries as it should, more quickly under more flexible oilier layers.


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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:41 pm

I've used all of these except for the Weber wOils, but I mainly use Artisans. Now that Holbein have added some cadmiums to their line, I might have to order a few more colors to try.
After painting with some traditional oils this weekend (very soft and oily), I realized I prefer the stiffer Artisan paints. I use the thinner with them for sketching/under painting, then switch to Graham's walnut alkyd for the rest of the painting.
No need to worry about walnut oil going rancid, unless you plan on eating it! Store it just like your other painting mediums/oils.

Judy - did you mean the thinner or the quick-dry medium? Artisan has an improved version of the quick-dry. Works well, but I prefer the walnut alkyd.

David - how are the Artisan colors inconsistent? Is it certain ones, or is it random? Tell us more, please!

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:01 am

David, Lukas Berlin is the other brand that is easier for me to purchase. The problem with hues is that the mixes can be unpredictable. Is that rite? Smile

Debra, Thank you for the great explanation of your process! Last time I went to purchase some Artisans they didn't have the thinner so I didn't bother picking some up. They did have the Artisan Medium. How does the Atisan Medium differ from the Thinner? Sorry for all the questions. Smile

Callie, how fast does the paint dry when you use the Graham walnut alkyd. I like a enough time to blend and with the Lukas Berlin Quick Drying Medium I find it dries too fast. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:18 am

Janet - The Artisan thinner is comparable to oderless mineral spirits or turpentine. It thins the paint, unlike the various oils/mediums that fatten the paint. The thinner is good for a first layer or under-painting, also good for scrubbing out mistakes! I find the Artisan quick-dry a little too thick, so adding a few drops of thinner to it improves the flow. The walnut alkyd is a little slower than the Artisan to tack up. I think it has a softer, smoother feel to it - no need to dilute it with the thinner.
The paints stay soft and blend easily (I usually don't paint for more than 4-5 hours at a time), the next day they're usually "set" enough to continue without messing up what I've already done. I don't know about thicker or impasto applications.

I got some of the Lukas Berlin Quick-dry several years ago. It was white and very watery, so I was kind of leary to use it (also, I don't read German, so I couldn't tell from the label if I got the right thing or not tongue ).

Anyway - the walnut oil and walnut alkyd work well with oils in general - traditional and WM, and whatever brand I use.

OK, have I wandered off-topic? Where's the moderator to scream at me in front of everyone??? Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:42 am

dlspinks wrote:
Janet, I start by adding a couple of drops of Artisan painting medium per inch or so of paint and mix thoroughly with a palette knife. This step alone brings the paint to a consistency similar to out-of-the-tube Holbeins.

The problem I have with that is by adding oil it makes a "fatter" paint. I shouldn't be forced to do anything to the paint right out of the tube in order to use it, in my opinion.

dlspinks wrote:
...Judy, unfortunately, I have an aversion to the feel of oily things. The thinner has really helped with that - I also use it to remove leftover paint from my brush between color changes and before I wash them at the end of the day...

It should probably be mentioned that (from what I've read by others) the Artisan Thinner is only intended for Artisan paint, and doesn't work properly with other brands.

dlspinks wrote:
David, by lack of consistency in color in Artisans, do you mean from one tube to another of the same Artisan color or between other brands?

By consistency I mean that I've bought Artisans that sometimes work just fine, but other times are too hard or too oily. I've also bought replacement tubes that in one case was too hard, and the new tube of the same color (cadmium red) was too oily, so oily it practically poured out of the tube. I'm not sure what causes the hardness or stiffness that makes them difficult to squeeze out. I'd think if it's due to their formulation, then all the paints should behave the same. MAX paints have given me similar problems with stiffness, but the other brands (besides Holbein) were either fine or too oily. The only WMO paints I tend to trust these days is Holbein DUO, but did give Artisan another chance since I needed that cerulean and it was easily available. There's a color of MAX (nickle titanate yellow) I'm curious about, so I might give them another shot. Hopefully they've made some improvements.
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:54 am

Janet, the thinner acts as a solvent and has no oil. It decreases the percentage of oil in the paint, thus making it leaner. The mediums (painting or quick-dry) are a mix of solvent and oil (the quick-dry also has resin). It thins the paint, but does not make it more lean. You can make your own painting medium by mixing thinner and oil. You can find more info by checking out the Solvent and Mediums links at Winsor Newton. Within each section, there is also good stuff in the "Essential Information" sidebar links.

If you have used traditional oils in the past, you can compare the function of the wm thinner with turps, the painting medium with traditional medium, and the quick dry medium with liquin.

The thinner is not yet as widely available as the other products. So far I have seen it online from Dick Blicks and Jerry's Artarama, but not Cheap Joes (although CJ will special order it if you ask). None of these carried it in-store the last time I checked.

I have seen it in-store at Hobby Lobby. I don't have a nearby Michaels or AJ Moore, so do not know if they carry it.
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:37 pm

Hi David, I agree, Holbein is the best out of the tube. But I have a ton of Artisan, so I was determined to make it work for me in a way that kept me from chucking the lot.

The medium is a mix of thinner and oil, so it doesn't make it significantly oilier. I use less or none if the paint starts out long, more if it starts out short.

Quote :
It should probably be mentioned that (from what I've read by others) the Artisan Thinner is only intended for Artisan paint, and doesn't work properly with other brands.

That is definitely true for Holbein; I've tried. I have heard it depends on how the oil in the wm paint was formulated. Some have a modified linseed oil, whereas others use standard linseed oil with a surfactant added. The WN thinner was designed to work with a modified linseed oil. If another brand modifies their paint in a similar way, it may work (I haven't tested any others except Holbein so do not know if this has been tried - any takers?).

Quote :
I'm not sure what causes the hardness or stiffness that makes them difficult to squeeze out.
I think it's a variety of factors - production methods, pigment characteristic, shelf-age of paint, how it is stored/handled in-store, among many others. I've heard the same complaint about different brands of traditional oils, also, even with some of the best. I've even heard someone claim that total consistency is a sign of inferior product!
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:40 pm

Callie, I know what your saying about the German for the Lukas Berlin. It's really difficult to locate where the English is located on their products. Thank you for the information on the walnut alkyd that sound good to me. Here I go again my shopping list is growing.

Callie wrote:
OK, have I wandered off-topic? Where's the moderator to scream at me in front of everyone??? Evil or Very Mad


ROFL No screaming or overmoderation here. Just have fun! I'm here more to do the grunt work. Smile

Debra Thank you for the information and link. I did check it out and the one that was in the store (Michaels) was listed as:

Artists' Painting Medium: This is a prepared medium that thins the colour consistency, improves flow and wetting, slows drying, increases the durability of the film and is resistant to yellowing. Artists' Painting Medium is well suited for oiling out.

I wonder if when I go back to purchase some W&N if they don't have the thinner again if this medium will work ok. With the Holbein I like the 1/2 water and 1/2 linseed oil as a medium. I don't like too oily. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:56 pm

dlspinks wrote:
..I've even heard someone claim that total consistency is a sign of inferior product!

Only if it's consistently BAD. Why buy something if you can't expect how good it'll be, especially if there are better alternatives?
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:11 pm

I'm with if you can make it work and it's easier to get a hold of I'm interested in the product. I think all the brands have their own strong points and it will depend what you prefer regarding availability and handling. We all have our own style and likes and dislikes. I'm actually liking the idea of a paint that is a little stiffer for my painting style. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:49 pm

Janet wrote:
Artists' Painting Medium: This is a prepared medium that thins the colour consistency, improves flow and wetting, slows drying, increases the durability of the film and is resistant to yellowing. Artists' Painting Medium is well suited for oiling out.

I wonder if when I go back to purchase some W&N if they don't have the thinner again if this medium will work ok. With the Holbein I like the 1/2 water and 1/2 linseed oil as a medium. I don't like too oily. Smile

The Artisan Thinner and Artisan Painting Medium are two different things. The thinner is a solvent, the medium is a mix of solvent and oil.

Solvents alone are 100% lean. For traditional paint, oms and turpentine are solvents. For wmo's, water is a solvent, as is Artisan thinner.

Solvent (lean) and oil (fat), alone or together in myriad combinations (medium), can be used to thin paint. In your homemade medium, water is the lean factor, oil is the fat factor.

The more solvent your mix has, the more quickly it dries. But you would not use 100% solvent to thin paint (except for a first washy sketch layer) as you would dilute the oil in the paint too much and compromise the binding property of the paint.

On the other hand, the more oil your mix has, the longer your paint will take to dry. If you are having problems with the paint taking too long to dry, try increasing the water and decreasing the oil in your mix.

I use the WN wm painting medium essentially the same way you use your mix. I add the thinner only if I want it even less oily. I use Artisan thinner instead of water because Artisan paints present time-consuming gumminess/foaming issues when I use water that are not present when I use the thinner. I don't use the thinner with Holbeins because a) Holbeins do not present these issues with water and b) the thinner actually introduces the gumminess problem when used with Holbein. I don't know if it works with Lukas.

I've used Artisan painting medium with my Holbeins with no problem.
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PostSubject: Re: What brand of Water Soluble Oils do you use?   Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:31 pm

Debra, Thank you so much! That's exactly what I needed to know. Now I have several options and I like options. Smile

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